A rigid consensus on inclusion criteria for this list has not been reached. It is preferred to propose new items on the talk page first.
Any proposed new entries to the article must at least fulfill the following:
The common misconception's main topic has an article of its own.
The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception.
The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources.
The common misconception is current, as opposed to ancient or obsolete.
If you have an item to add that does not fulfill these criteria but you still think should be included, please suggest it on the talk page with your rationale for inclusion.
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The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Note to people who wish the page wasn't being split: There is an effort (explained above) to create a single page view for readers. Splitting the current list is a necessary prerequisite for accomplishing that goal. Even if you opposed the decision to split this page, you are still invited to express a preference about how the pieces will be arranged. We can make no progress towards the goal of reassembling the pieces into a single view until we agree on what the pieces will be.
The first option is "Two", and the second option is "Three", which could get confusing for the closer ("He said two, but did he mean two lists or the second option, which is three lists?"), so please spell out your vote in this format:
Two lists. The consensus was reached to split for technical reasons, so no need to split any further than necessary to address the size concerns raised in the split discussion. STEM vs humanities is a natural divide. UPDATE: below, some editors are !voting for One list - that is my very strong preference. As explained in the split discussion, I reluctantly agreed to a split if necessary for technical reasons. That necessity has still not been established. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 20:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Four lists, but three would also make sense. Splitting by existing sections makes a lot of sense, but, judging by eye, the expected content for Health is about the same size as History, and also makes a lot of sense to me as a conceptual split. I want to say I prefer not to see the arbitrary clumping of two lists, but this whole thing is arbitrary at a certain point, isn’t it? — HTGS (talk)23:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One list, Keep as is. It's not that long (most of the text's body is made up of References), and it's a great read and popular topic, obtaining over 2,300 readers a day for the last year! I haven't read the entire thing, so thanks for bringing attention to it. Nothing wrong in keeping this well-known list (and importantly, splits lose readers, I think, because not everyone goes to every page of a split topic). univolved in the discussion to split, missed it, was it every posted at the affiliated WikiProjects? Randy Kryn (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One list, much as Randy Kryn suggests, but if the insistence is on more, then someone will have to put a LOT of effort into cross-linking to the separate parts. If you are lost in one list you can always do a find for keywords, whereas trying that with multiple lists is cumbersome and confusing.
Furthermore, misconceptions do not come neatly packaged into categories. Plenty of examples are both science-related and art-related, and history-related. Either you make it cumbersome with multiple entries in more than one list (and keep the entries equally updated and consistent!!!) or you wish the reader pot-luck in finding the right place and getting the context right.
Probably a better investment of effort would be the insertion of a lot of illustrations, and a lot of careful editing of ambiguous or unhelpful entries that even if not wrong, are no more helpful than the original error. Consider the one about cells not outnumbered by microorganisms -- it is just one example. Plenty where that came from. JonRichfield (talk) 06:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Randy Kryn The split discussion was not an RFC (it should have been) and to the best of my knowledge was not posted at at the affiliated WikiProjects. Agree with keeping it as one list, as do several other active editors for this page. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Mr swordfish, and yes, this is such an iconic and well-known page of Wikipedia that such a major proposed dissection surprised me (especially when not the subject of project alerts or other ongoing discussion promotion). Maybe you can boldface the words 'keeping it as one list' to make your comment clearer to readers and a potential closer. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to re-litigate the previous discussion, then please note that this list has gotten so long that we can't use regular Wikipedia:Citation templates in it because of the WP:PEIS technical limits, and at the current rate of growth, even the workaround will eventually break. Any attempt to keep this on one page needs to explain how you're going to make the sources visible when even the capacity of the workaround is exceeded.
After the split happens, we're looking at a way to re-assemble the page into a single view for readers who like that. But we can't do that until the split happens. So what would actually be helpful here is "I'd like the technical split to involve ____ subpages, and I want S Marshall's magic solution to be implemented as soon as possible so people can still read it on one page". What's not helpful is "I'd like to kick this can down the road until it's an emergency". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What the references look like when the w:en:WP:PEIS limits have been exceeded on this page: Links to the templates, and not a single source shown anywhere on the page. Just to be clear about the technical problem, take a look at the refs section in this version. Do you see 891 refs there? I don't. When you put too many templates on a page, they stop being shown. From the reader's POV, it becomes a completely unsourced article.
Now, if that's what you want, then you can just say that. A !vote like "Who cares about sources, since readers don't look at those anyway" would do. I'd even back you up with a source that shows readers almost never look at the sources. But if you think that article content should be cited, and not just by hiding the information in the wikitext code, then we are going to have to change our approach, and the only question is whether we do it now, with plenty of time to work out solutions, or when the whole page breaks and there's no time to do it well. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by deliberately breaking the references and then claiming that the page is broken, but it's not a very convincing argument. The references all appear in the current version. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing to agree to, I did not suggest changing it. This RfC opened and has progressed under it, and my opinion to keep the page as one list also rests on both the title of this RfC and the message of the present template. Arguably, the time has passed to remove that template, which should now be linked with this RfC. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"One list" is my answer to the RfC title. Since you removed the present template, and left no other, this RfC is presently going unannounced[Returned with the new date, October 2024]. The language on the template you removed seemed fine, just an update on the date and a link to this RfC should handle it. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The RfC title is the topic, not the question. I did have a look at other current RfCs to find an applicable replacement template, and none seemed to indicate on the article page that an RfC was ongoing.
The template text "It has been suggested that this article should be split into multiple articles." is outdated, given there is a consensus that the article should be split into multiple articles, and this RfC is determining how to implement that. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was no notice about a split discussion outside of the page itself, as far as I know, even though many Wikiprojects are involved in this article. If this RfC answers 'None', or 'Keep as is', then that's a perfectly good option. There is no "have to split" if consensus on this RfC chooses not to. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While there were some "notifications" outside this talk page, they did not reach a large audience. In particular, there was no notification to the standard places that an RfC would normally get i.e.
Trying to claim that posting a question at the village pump is adequate is not very convincing. Randy Kryn observation that the split discussion was not adequately advertised is apt, and if a consensus forms among the wider audience of editors now made aware by the RfC not to split, well, consensus can change. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 02:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two or three. We should follow the precedent set by WP:REFDESK and split into lists according to those subject areas as needed. we can start with three lists: humanities, science and technology, and mathematics. Or two lists, humanities and STEM. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Three or four lists. To my eye the larger-scale topics are a bit ungainly, and as Ships&Space states, this article is already split into three topics. I wouldn't be opposed to spinning out health per HTGS's reasoning though. novovtalkedits09:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Find any consensus. It really doesn't matter how many pages to split to. What matters is that we finally get on with splitting it in whatever way the fewest editors disagree with.—S MarshallT/C22:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to add that it's needful to split this page for technical reasons, and "don't split" is an option the community has recently considered and explicitly rejected.—S MarshallT/C22:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with 'one list' but not 'keep as is'. I think this article should be a singular much smaller 'List of common misconceptions' page, with references to other more detailed lists, the fact it's too long isn't just a technical issue, it's also much worse for the readers to have to scroll through pages of trivia to find the useful content. The 'main' page should actually apply the inclusion criteria, many, MANY of the entries do not have any evidence that they are actually common misconceptions. The very the first entry is missing any reference to evidence that it is , in fact, a common misconception.
Three lists: The categories for two are ugly and awkward, but we should try to split as little as is reasonably possible. If a recent consensus hadn't been reached, I'd be against splitting at all, but since it has I am very against trying to override a recent consensus. Loki (talk) 06:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LokiTheLiar, thanks for an interesting comment. You'd rather have one list but are going with a split that you don't like. This shows that the consensus reached was both premature and ill-timed, as it should have been reached at an RfC (preferably this one as an option). This RfC question is 'how many pages to split to', and your and other editors is 'none'. To not split. That seems the correct option for this long-term near-iconic Wikipedia page. The only split needed is the existing Table of Contents, which is used for that purpose. Readers know how to use a Table of Contents. Please reconsider, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Randy, can I just ask: do you fully understand the technical considerations here? Do you understand that post-split there would still be a one-page version? Do you understand why and how the unsplit page is breaking Wikipedia's underlying code? We didn't decide to split on a whim.—S MarshallT/C13:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just got back to this, thanks S Marshall. No, I really don't understand the tech end of this, just seems that Wikipedia coding should be able to handle the page's uploading capacity on mobile (that's coming from someone not at all knowledgeable about code, or mobile, but expecting miracles and full functioning from both). I do know that the discussion had two sides, so keeping this as one page doesn't seem too much off the mark. In any case, I came in cold (or code) and answered the question about how many pages do I think this should be split into, and I opined about keeping it as is. That's still my opinion, given that I think that if the servers and coding can't handle the size of this page then they, and not the break-up of an iconic article, should be improved and brought up to speed even if it takes a Wikipedia/WMF Moon shot to do it. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right --- no, it's not that. This isn't about server load and it isn't about whether the page will render on mobile.
This is about the hard cap on the number of templates that will display.
And I expect you're thinking, "What?" I know I did when I first came across this.
Why is there a hard cap on the number of templates that will display? Well, it's necessary to protect the servers from certain kinds of sophisticated vandalism that amount to attacks. A clever vandal could set up templates that called each other recursively, so you end up with very large numbers of templates proliferating and absorbing our resources. There are good security reasons why we wouldn't want to change the cap. And the cap is set at such a high level that it almost never comes up (which is why it's confusing so many editors here).
How does the hard cap affect this article? Well, all our references are in templates (and they rightly should be). So we've made this article unexpandable: we can't add further references. For a while now, editors have been using a workaround by adding special code into the references, but this too is on the point of failure.
I've scratched my head about this and then devised a solution that keeps the whole article displaying on one page. The method uses selective transclusion. We can split the article into two, three, or four sections for editing purposes, but someone just wanting to view the list of common misconceptions as a whole will still be able to see it on one page. Some or all of the references won't be visible on the one-page view; but they'll still exist, and they'll be one click away.
If you read the previous discussions, you'll find a link to a demo/mockup/proof of concept that I've set up.
Thanks S Marshall. You say the page will still be presented to readers as one page, and I can't say I understand the coding but will take your word on that. Which is all I was saying when presented with the question of this RM. If true, wasn't my 'one' already correct no matter how many pages the sources are split to? In any case, since you designed the work-around, I'll ease up on my comments above due to my misunderstanding the concept, but would still like to hear Mr swordfish's analysis or objection in this sub-discussion. Mr swordfish, is it correct that the article's text will still be presented as one page? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure what S Marshall is proposing. I thought I did, but was told otherwise. Ideally, the article would look the same for most readers, rather than being N separate articles. There's a way to do this with transclusion and tags to suppress excessive templates, but I'm not sure that is what is in the works or whether it would be acceptable to have the citations "one click away" vs right there in-line. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@S Marshall Suppose we split the list into two, add in all the markup to make the transclusions work, create the one-page article, all in some sandbox. Then, suppose we decide later the split should be three or four (or more) sub-articles. How much work would it entail to make this change? Seems to me that it would just be a matter of adding a couple of lines to the one-page version and cutting and pasting material into the one-page version. i.e. the majority of the work would be the initial addition of the suppression markup and that a 2 vs 3 vs 4 way split would be a trivial amount of work in comparison.
Which is to say, what are we waiting for? Split it 2 or 3 or 4 ways in a sandbox somewhere, do the rest of the transclusion magic, and let's take a good look at the final result. I understand that there's a fair amount of markup to be added, but there are dozens of us that the work could be split among. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 18:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's enough work that I'm not willing to embark on it speculatively. I want a community decision on what we're doing, which should precede the actual doing it. WAID asked about the "one click away" references on WT:V but didn't get much engagement from people who understood the question.—S MarshallT/C18:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Solely based on the idea that technical problems require splitting, I support Three lists, transcluded into the main article. This way using the "find" tool still works, and although more difficult, it is possible to find the citations. There is a clear notice telling you where to find them; although of course people don't read notices I figure it won't be impossible. It would be useful to A/B test that with people who do not edit Wikipedia, but likely this discussion does not have the means.
Personally, I'm finding I don't hate the the "transclude subpages" idea as much as I thought I would. The real annoying part will be the markup -- why not mark the citations as "noinclude" rather than marking the text as "onlyinclude"? Having to specifically mark stuff to be included will make it more difficult for newer editors who forget, whose contributions will simply not appear on the main page. Unwanted citations will also be easier to spot then missing content.
As for the number of lists -- the "health" section is small and can be split out later if necessary, but currently does not warrant its own article.
I think that transcluding is the right choice because it preserves the single "List of common misconceptions" format -- it doesn't introduce extra friction -- it can be read in one piece -- and so on. There are babies born when the article was put into this format who can now drive, and there it's semi-famous for being what it is -- let's not split it up (at least text-wise) if we can avoid it. Mrfoogles (talk) 03:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Four lists or three and then use technical wizardry to merge them together as has been proposed. The four lists will keep the page size down so that they can be expanded with references as needed, and merging them into one will solve the problem of diluting the lists. I prefer four to three lists simply to make sure this problem doesn't come up again in the future... I feel four lists is the best way to future-proof... but three might be fine, so I don't object to that. The talk pages for the split articles can be made to redirect to the main talk page. I think those !voting for one list should either challenge the close or move on. Fieari (talk) 07:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One list (splitting into sublists and then transcluding is fine). This is an iconic list in Wikipedia culture and has been referenced in materials like xkcd, and I think we'd be losing something if we split it. It's true that this list is longer than a typical article, but that's OK; unlike most articles, it's not meant to be read in a single sitting. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 18:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't say it's perfect at this point, and I'm not sure what we're going to do about the talk page or what happens when a naive user clicks the edit button, but it's a start. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 20:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I assume by treating them to a giant edit notice, although I can't say the edit notice already on the page has been given much heed.
I didn't miss it. You raise a perfectly valid concern that I can't resolve.
Our choices are:
(a) Have an article that displays on one page;
(b) Have an article that displays all the references;
(c) Have an article that can be expanded with further references and entries.
Pick any two. You can't have all three.
The current version is (a) and (b). WAID's "split" proposal is (b) and (c), and my "transclude" proposal is (a) and (c). There seem to be editors with strident and passionate objections to every option.
WAID's comment is only tangentially related to yours; she's talking about how the software fails if we continue with our current (a) and (b) version and then try to add more content.
A and C seems like a reasonable compromise. I think much of the opposition to the split is fueled by the risk that it doesn't actually end up as one page. Benjamin (talk) 03:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Popular belief asserts that individuals of either sex who are not in sexually active relationships tend to masturbate more frequently than those who are; however, much of the time this is not true as masturbation alone or with a partner is often a feature of a relationship. Contrary to this belief, several studies actually reveal a positive correlation between the frequency of masturbation and the frequency of intercourse. A study has reported a significantly higher rate of masturbation in gay men and women who were in a relationship.[52][64][65][66] Benjamin (talk) 17:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Suggested inclusion in the "Economics" section - this is a resurrection of something I proposed back in April 2023, which I think merits inclusion as the concept now specifically has its own Wikipedia article that mentions the misconception specifically:
Businesses do not get a tax benefit from collecting charitable donations from their customers, for example at supermarket checkouts. In most jurisdictions, corporation taxes are assessed based on a business' profits; a corporation gains zero tax benefit from collecting funds from customers to then pass on to charities, since the donation would not reflect as either an expense of or income for the business. A business could only use donations to reduce tax owed by donating their own money or resources - this would reduce tax, but only by reducing profit. It would not make economic sense for a company (or an individual) to donate money solely to save tax, since the amount of tax saved would be significantly smaller than the amount donated.[1][2]
Inclusion criteria:
The common misconception's main topic has an article of its own.: Yes, checkout charity
The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception: Two sources provided, one referencing a widespread TikTok on the matter and the other from a major news source mentioning this being spread in Facebook. AP News has also fact checked this: https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-000329849244
The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources: Yes.
The common misconception is current, as opposed to ancient or obsolete: Sources are from the past couple of years, and it is a perennial misconception on social media.
I'm not seeing where a reliable source establishes that it is a common misconception. "Thousands" of facebook or tiktok posts wouldn't seem to be enough - there is so much misinformation floating through those and other similar social media sites that "thousands" is a drop in the bucket and I don't think we can list every single piece of misinformation that attracts 1000 or more posts. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 20:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Surely it being something that both the Associated Press and USA Today have published pieces rebutting, as well as being mentioned on the Wikipedia page for the overall concept, establishes that it is common? Foonblace (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's pretty common and should go into the article. The popularity of the social media posts is a reflection of the general misunderstanding around this. Anecdotally, it certainly feels like quite a common misconception. Another source here debunks it, again, they wouldn't need to debunk it if it wasn't relatively common. "TikTok And Other Social Media Posts Are Wrong About Charity At The Checkout"[3] , there's another source here 'fact checking' the claim [4], here's a Canadian source, showing it's more of an international phenomenon "Why nobody gets a tax benefit when you donate at the checkout | CBC Radio"[5]JeffUK13:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed my mind! having seen the issues about the article size, I don't think it's clear enough from the sources that this is a common misconception for it to be included. JeffUK10:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I get the feeling that maybe this list should be retitled "List of misconceptions" (dropping "common"). Three reasons for this:
The sourcing is generally not strong enough to actually establish they're "common", just that someone claims it is. Often these sources are weak, or only claim the misconception is common in passing.
Whether a misconception is "common" or not is an opinion that has to be attributed, not stated in Wikivoice. (What does "common" mean—5%? 20%? 50%?)
It lets a lot of misconceptions off the hook just because we haven't found a source using the exact word "common". (Even if the fact that someone's writing a piece to debunk it implies they think it's at least somewhat common.)
One could apply that logic to every article on Wikipedia, which merely re-reports what the reliable sources say i.e. if a reliable source (someone) claims X to be true then we put X into the article. Here, the inclusion criteria requires that some reliable source states that it is a common misconception or words to that effect. We repeat what the reliable sources say.
If we relaxed that criteria and allowed entries for every misconception the article would be way way too long to be of interest to anyone.
One could apply that logic to every article on Wikipedia, which merely re-reports what the reliable sources say i.e. if a reliable source (someone) claims X to be true then we put X into the article.
That's not always true: if a reliable source states an opinion (rather than a fact), it needs to attributed per WP:INTEXT and WP:RSOPINION. This is true even if the source is usually reliable—if a writer in the New York Times calls a film "the greatest of all time", we have to describe this as "Writer A described this film as 'the greatest of all time'".
That said, if there are specific entries where you don't think the sourcing is sufficient, please start a new thread here on the talk page.
I think almost all the entries don't have enough sourcing to establish the misconception is actually "common", because most of them don't provide evidence to back up their claims. Most of these are pop science or journalists making an offhand claim about the topic without backing it up. If we want to claim these misconceptions are common, we have to show the sources are genuinely reliable on the topic of public opinion. Examples of reliable sources would be statistical analyses of standardized tests, social media posts, or polling by reputable firms. However, a WP:PASSING description of it as common by a journalist isn't enough—I'm sure journalists claim lots of things are "common misconceptions" even if they aren't.
If we relaxed that criteria and allowed entries for every misconception the article would be way way too long to be of interest to anyone.
Obviously we don't want to allow entries for every misconception, just the popular ones. However, every claim on Wikipedia includes two implicit assertions:
The claim meets WP:VERIFIABILITY—there are enough highly-reliable sources to guarantee the fact is true.
The claim meets WP:NOTABILITY—the claim is important.
A misconception needs to be discussed and covered in enough reliable sources to warrant being included in this list, which means it has to be common. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. In other words, a "List of misconceptions" would still be a list of common misconceptions, because uncommon misconceptions would not be notable—obviously we won't include every time someone was wrong about something in this article. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 04:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At what point does a misconception become "common"—5% of the population? 20%? 50%? (There's some extreme cases where e.g. >90% of people believe something, in which case any reasonable editor would agree it's "common", but lots of items on this list don't meet that bar—I doubt even 5% of people believe some of these, and most of this list would probably fall in the gray area.)
Here's 3: Contemporary global warming is driven by human activities...; The signing of the United States Declaration of Independence did not occur on...; and Crime rates are declining.... These cite high-quality polls finding the misconceptions are common (or might be, if we had an objective bar for that).
There's no need to meet WP:GNG, but there's still a need for facts to be somewhat notable—I probably should've cited WP:INDISCRIMINATE or WP:LSC. The point is just that retitling this article wouldn't force us to add uncommon misconceptions.
Closed Limelike Curves What is "the population"? American? Global? South Koreans? The elderly of South Korea? The other point to make is that unless >90% of the group is the global population, you will never get universal agreement on something being popular. 90% of the US is 3.5% of the world. Without qualification as common in the US, can this be said to be "common"? The reason why I am leaning against attributing opinion here is because it is at odds with standard Wikipedia practice. How the community applies attribution will generally require the assessment (this is common being contested) being contested, i.e. being contradicted in another source. Perhaps this should not be the way it should applied, but it would require so much more attention; read a featured article on a biography and all the "he was a difficult child" stuff (almost all of it) would require breaking out of Wikivoice.
It is OR to draw that line. It was considered a few years back and that determination was made, and what is OR has become stricter since. We would need polling, and then the source to analyse it and call it common, and then probably date it. Do you have three of these sources?
Probably not best to relitigate this at this time unless there is a more substantial groundswell, but the general critique is that a belief cannot be "common" in a vacuum, but must be qualified as common among a group (common among America but uncommon among the world etc).
If we try to exclude some groups from the page (i.e. if it's common in Texas that doesn't mean it's common, if it's common among chemists it doesn't mean it's common) we are trying again to define common in a vacuum, which is impossible. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend not including this because:
It's only about the US tax structure.
The sources you're relying on for how the accounting works are – um, let's say "oversimplifying", because that sounds more pleasant than "wrong".
This is 100% OR and therefore should not go in the article, but just so Wikipedia editors know, there are a couple of "correct" ways to handle such donations, and one of them results in "income" and a matching "expense". Additionally, most of these are going to raise the credit card processing fees, which is a deductible expense, and which therefore decreases income tax liability.
A true statement would sound something closer to "Businesses do not pay income taxes on donations that they pass through to charities."
A truer statement about common misconceptions might be "Americans often believe that there is a tax difference for businesses reducing their profits through donations vs reducing their profits through buying advertisements or through paying their employees more." Spending $500 to buy an advertisement at the local youth sports event produces the same tax benefit, down to the penny, as donating $500 to "sponsor" a youth sports program. I don't know if you could find a source for that, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:37, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rollinginhisgrave:
I don't believe that the two recent additions about chocolate meet our inclusion criteria:
The common misconception's main topic has an article of its own.:
We have an article on mole (sauce) in general which mentions mole poblano. And an article on History of chocolate which mentions Aztec chocolate drinks.
The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception:
I don't think there's any dispute about the factual contents.
On the other hand, I see no good evidence that they are common misconceptions. Do people expect Mexican chocolate to contain cinnamon? No doubt. But does that rise to a "misconception"? There are salad dressings in the US called "French", "Russian", and "Italian" which are not found in those countries. Do people actually believe that they come from those countries?
Does anyone believe in a pre-Spanish origin for mole poblano? The usual origin story (for what it's worth) is about some nuns in a convent in the 18th century. A more nuanced story talks about various sources and influences on the dish. "Nuns and Napoleon: The history of Mexico’s ‘mole’ dish"
The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources:
I see nothing in the topic articles about these misconceptions.
Macrakis thanks for flagging, I'm not opposed to deleting them although I'd like to dig out the sourcing to see if you think it verifies that they are common misconceptions beforehand. Narrowly on "The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources"; I couldn't find a way to work in a link to History of chocolate to the mole without going too far into MOS:EASTEREGG although this was intended to be the topic article and was linked next to the entry. The mentions in the topic article are as follows:
"While mole poblano, a sauce that contains chocolate, is commonly associated with the Aztecs, it originated in territory that was never occupied by them, and the sauce was only invented after the Spanish invasion."
"While Aztec chocolate drinks are commonly understood to contain cinnamon, the spice was only introduced to Mesoamerica by the Spanish conquest."
Quote verifying common misconception for cinnamon: "But historical fact does not determine present-day accuracy. For example, a chocolate drink globally coded as a “real Aztec recipe” is expected to contain cinnamon, a flavor and spice only introduced to Mesoamerica through the Spanish conquest."[3] I have argued in the past that sourcing of this kind, where it verifies it is a common misconception among people who have knowledge of a "real Aztec recipe for chocolate" does not verify it is a common misconception. My argument was rejected, so I put this forth. I'm happy to revisit it, from memory an example at issue was the Creme Chantilly item.
Quote verifying common misconception for mole "In all of the pages of Sahagun that deal with Aztec cuisine and with chocolate, there is not a hint that it ever entered into an Aztec dish. Yet today many food writers and gourmets consider one particular dish, the famous pavo in mole poblano, which contains chocolate, to represent the pinnacle of the Mexican cooking tradition." This verifies it is held as misconception among many gourmets and food writers. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:09, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with removal. They seems to be factually correct, but we don't have adequate sourcing that they are common misconceptions.
As for the Whipped Cream entry, I think WP:WHATABOUTX would apply here, i.e. another entry being problematic is not a good argument for adding more problematic entries. I haven't looked carefully at the cites for that entry but would not object to its removal too. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 16:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing to the quotes in the History of Chocolate article. My impression is that the post-conquest origin of mole poblano is widely acknowledged since it's so obvious that it contains both indigenous and European ingredients. As for drinking chocolate, it is true that it was used as a beverage pre-conquest, although of course without cinnamon and sugar, so it's hard to know whether someone claiming that it is of Aztec origin is misinformed or simply glossing over the evolution of the dish. After all, pretty much all recipes evolve. --Macrakis (talk) 23:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For post-conquest mole poblano origin; I think simultaneously many people can acknowledge the post-conquest origins while also apparently being a misconception among food writers and gourmets (and perhaps beyond, this is whom we can verify at least). We see misconceptions being possible among multiple understandings for fuck for instance, where it people apparently both believe it originated from an acronym or from "pluck you"; just because there are multiple understandings doesn't preclude any one being a common misconception.
It's mentioned in the topic article Snake#Perception paragraph 4.
So, it seems to meet the inclusion criteria, although it's more of a "scientific consensus has changed" sort of misconception. It's also based on just one study, so we might want to be careful here. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 01:40, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Snakes being able to hear seems like a good addition to me. I believe many people think that snakes can't hear, and according to one of the sources there are now multiple studies showing that they can. — Mudwater (Talk)11:37, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In this edit, @JeffUK removed the "expiration date" misconception, saying
Remove package food entry, it's untrue as stated and therefore unsafe. The ‘use by’ is a safety date on all foods where it's used in much of the world. (EU: After the ‘use by’ date, a food is deemed unsafe in accordance with article 14 (2) of Regulation EC No. 178/2002 )
In determining whether any food is unsafe, regard shall be had:... (b) to the information provided to the consumer, including information on the label, or other information generally available to the consumer concerning the avoidance of specific adverse health effects from a particular food or category of foods.
This is at best ambiguous. But in any case, it doesn't apply outside the EU.
I have restored the section, qualifying it as applying only to the US, where we have good sources. It would be nice to find good sources for other jurisdictions. --Macrakis (talk) 17:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Use by" is a food safety issue; fluid milk has a "use by" date and is expected to spoil (i.e., make you sick) soon afterwards. "Best by" is a food quality issue; potato chips have a "best by" date and are expected to be safe but perhaps a bit stale afterwards. I believe that "don't drink milk after its 'use-by' date" is a common correct-conception, but "don't eat potato chips after their 'best-by' date" is a common mis-conception. This list should differentiate the two, or only mention the best-by. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. There is a difference between "use by" and "best by" in some jurisdictions. Our current expiration date needs some improvement to clarify which wording is used with what meaning in which jurisdictions (with better sources) and then we can update the misconception. For example, as far as I can tell (but I need to do more research), "use by" is not a legally defined term in the US. --Macrakis (talk) 21:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This diff seems to be advocating a decidedly left-wing ideological and polemicist position. The "average" ordinary person regularly uses the nickname "Mama Cass" as do countless 1960s music playing radio stations, both internet and in the real world. Plus, "average" ordinary people don't use the terms "fat shaming" or "connotations" and wouldn't readily understand them or care if someone tried to explain, especially the latter. IMO, the IP is applying something that should not be done so in Wikipedia's "voice". 180.150.37.138 (talk) 19:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No need to characterize the edit as "left-wing" or comment on the phrasing used in the edit comment. The only question is whether we should include the name "Mama Cass" in the entry about Cass Elliot. That she didn't like the nickname isn't dispositive. The main question is whether including the nickname helps users identify her: is "Cass Elliot (of The Mamas & the Papas)" clear enough, or would it be helpful to write "Cass Elliot (Mama Cass of The Mamas & the Papas)"? According to Google nGrams, the name Mama Cass is about twice as common as Cass Elliot, so I think it's reasonable to assume that it's more familiar. It is also a name used for her in a Mamas & the Papas song, and the cited NYTimes article says "she found it hard to shake her nickname". So the name is widely familiar and I agree that it should be restored. --Macrakis (talk) 22:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While it's pretty clear that she did not like the name (at least in later life), unless someone can point to some relevant Wikipedia policy regarding nicknames that are disliked by the person we should include the more common identifier to make it understandable to the average reader. The fact that the edit comment and the initial comment above included some irrelevant editorializing shouldn't affect our decision on whether to include the alternate, more common identifier.
I'm in favor of restoring "Cass Elliot (Mama Cass of The Mamas & the Papas)". Unless someone can point to some policy prohibiting or disfavoring it. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 16:14, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia policy, when writing about an individual, the preferred name to use is the one most commonly used in reliable sources, which includes respecting a person's self-identified gender and preferred name, even if it differs from their legal name or how they were previously known in the public eye. Cass Elliot (which is not her birth name) is the name she chose for herself. Her father nicknamed her Cass after the Greek mythological prophetess Cassandra, and she chose the surname to honor a friend who died in a car accident.
Which Wikipedia policy is that? The closest policy I can find is at WP:PUBLICFIGURE which says biographies
... should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.
WP:COMMONNAME says Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources)." Kingturtle = (talk) 03:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re "the preferred name to use is the one most commonly used in reliable sources" -- yes, that is the policy for article titles. It doesn't say that other names shouldn't be used. We document names like William the Bad. And in the case of Cass Elliot, it seems that Mama Cass is a better known name than the name she preferred, a bit like Ivan the Terrible and Bloody Mary, which I think you'll agree are better-known names than Ivan IV of Russia and Mary I of England. --Macrakis (talk) 13:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That policy is about article titles, and if adhered to strictly would require renaming the topic article, Cass Elliot, to Mama Cass. I don't think anyone is arguing for that, and this is the wrong place to have that discussion.
No, if adhered to strictly, her article would be and IS Cass Elliot. We don't look to popular usage among people on the street. What matters is the name that she is referred to in sources. In biographies involving her she is referred to as Cass Elliot. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame calls her Cass Elliot. Kingturtle = (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"People on the street" are ordinary people and it is an average person that defines the objective norm, not outlier populations such as tertiary-educated people. Professional orgs like the R&RHOF and poli-social activists like the diff maker i objected to, are also not ordinary. JMO and YMMV. 180.150.37.138 (talk) 04:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't appear to be any Wikipedia policy that prohibits also mentioning the name under which she became famous, and which appears in most of the cites in the topic article. Or at least no one has been able to produce one. Given that, there appears to be consensus to restore the recent removal. I'll give it another day or so before making the change to see if anyone else wants to chime in. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 18:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i think u still cant disagree on what the church and pope teach:
III
THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH'S PASTORS
17. Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and in a particular way, to the Roman Pontiff as Pastor of the whole Church, when exercising their ordinary Magisterium, even should this not issue in an infallible definition or in a "definitive" pronouncement but in the proposal of some teaching which leads to a better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals and to moral directives derived from such teaching.
One must therefore take into account the proper character of every exercise of the Magisterium, considering the extent to which its authority is engaged. It is also to be borne in mind that all acts of the Magisterium derive from the same source, that is, from Christ who desires that His People walk in the entire truth. For this same reason, magisterial decisions in matters of discipline, even if they are not guaranteed by the charism of infallibility, are not without divine assistance and call for the adherence of the faithful.
Also, you need to be more specific about what changes you would like to see. Better to discuss things in the source article first, because this article is only supposed to summarize them. --Macrakis (talk) 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need to be more specific about what changes you would like to see. Better to discuss things in the source article first, because this article is only supposed to summarize them. --Macrakis (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need to be more specific about what changes you would like to see. Better to discuss things in the source article first, because this article is only supposed to summarize them. --Macrakis (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've implemented the article split and transclusion of the sub-articles. Some implementation notes:
Having the sub-articles in a subdirectory did not work as well in the main space as it does in a user space so the three sub-articles are at the root of the main space. If anyone has a better way to do this, I'm all ears.
I've spot checked "What links here" and the dozen or so links to this page that I checked seem to work. I did not check them all.
There are still three cites that I can't figure out how to prevent from being transcluded so they show up at the end of the article. Would appreciate any help with this.
The new sub-articles have attracted attention from a few editors who don't seem to understand the context and have made some "helpful" edits - I expect more of this.
Each sub-article has its own talk page and its own history. I'd recommend adding them to your watchlist since changes to them don't appear in the history here. Not sure what to do about potentially four different venues for discussion, but maybe it won't really matter in practice.
Currently, there is no edit notice on the sub-articles. I'll take a look at adding these. UPDATE: the edit notice has been applied to the sub-pages.
"Women are often viewed as more romantic than men, and romantic relationships are assumed to be more central to the lives of women than to those of men. Despite the prevalence of these beliefs, some recent research paints a different picture." Benjamin (talk) 10:39, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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