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Inclusion of Afghanistan

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Past discussions

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Is Afghanistan in South Asia or in Central Asia (or possibly in the Middle East)? This silly little question has attracted a surprising amount of wiki controversy over the years. I think the current, stable, version of the Afghanistan article gets things right: in the very first sentence it says the country is located at the crossroads of the two regions, and then never comes back to this question again. The other two linked articles devote some more screen space to the issue, and at least one of the two does an alright job of it.

I'm not interested in pursuing any changes here. I've just combed through the talk archives of Afghanistan, South Asia, Cental Asia and the Indian subcontinent articles, and compiled a catalogue of all relevant discussions I've been able to find. The list is as follows (I've excluded the numerous short unanswered edit-request threads, though I've left a few of those for flavour; bld indicates the thread was either particularly extensive or featured a lot of sources):

Notes

  1. ^ In those two threads the Afghanistan is only secondary to the greater controversy over the placement of Tibet
  2. ^ Also has some discussion of Tibet and Myanmar
  3. ^ These two discussions are ostensibly on another topic but include a number of refs that show the variation with respect to including Afghanistan

I can draw three conclusions from all the stuff above:

  1. This is an obvious point but it doesn't come up in the discussions nearly as often as it should. A region can be variously delimited based on a wide range of possible criteria and from the perspectives of disparate fields of academic knowledge and personal experience. Depending on the criterion used and the perspective taken, the entire country may fall within either of the regions, or parts of it may fall within one region and parts within another. In either case, the inclusion can be (and very often is) of a fuzzy type.
  2. A large number of sources have been presented in some of the discussions. A lot of them include Afghanistan in South Asia. A lot include Afghanistan in Central Asia. A lot of sources talk of South Asia without including Afghanistan. A lot talk of Central Asia without including the country. Very, very few sources have been presented that have gone beyond passing mentions to explicitly discuss the country's inclusion in this or that region; there's next to nothing there that could form the basis of non-OR metastatements of the type "Most/some definitions of region X include/exclude Afghanistan".
  3. This last point is impossible to miss in the discussions: despite #1 and #2 above, for each of the two regions there is a large set of editors who are absolutely adamant that the country's inclusion in this region is the position that's obvious, natural, common, and supported by the majority of sources, and who vehemently oppose its inclusion in the other region as a fringe viewpoint divorced from reality and largely absent from the sources. This has been a major driving force of the past discussions and is the reason why many of them make for such a sad reading. – Uanfala (talk) 19:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The specifics

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The above overview I also posted at Talk:Afghanistan#South Asia or Central Asia?. (I'm reproducing it here instead of simply linking to it as I think it forms an essential backdrop to what will follow and because I don't want all the links to break once all that ends up in the archives.) Now, a few points specific to how the matter is treated in the South Asia article.

Currently, the lede states that Afghanistan is part of the region, which is then reiterated at the start of the Definition section with the claim that sources are consistent in including it (this claim is not supported by any of the sources cited, as I'll detail below). Now, there's footnote in the lede and some content further down in the Definition section which walk that statement back and then attempt to add some nuance. The whole matter was discussed in the threads on this talk page from 2017, 2018 and 2020, and the current state of affairs was then justified with reference to SAARC (Afghanistan is in SAARC, therefore it's in South Asia, and so any nuances should be left out of the lede). That's an obvious non-starter: membership in an international organisation is one among many aspects to a country's international orientation, and a country's international orientation is itself only one among several aspects that determine its inclusion in a region that's also significantly conceived on the basis of cultural, historic, physical geographic or other considerations.

As far as I can see, the only claim that we can make based on the sources so far is that some of them include the country and others don't. – Uanfala (talk) 19:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ChatGPT has given us the best possible answer:
Afghanistan is a part of Central Asia.
I know Indians will refuse to accept this fact, but at least we should insert a note so readers are aware that Afghanistan's inclusion in South Asia is disputed. 120.18.220.112 (talk) 08:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think you’re missing the point here. Afghanistan is not exclusively and solely a Central Asian country. It’s also a south Asian country, backed by many sources that adhere to Wikipedia:Reliable sources. It’s both a central and south Asian country. Even some sources include it in West Asia since it isn’t on the Indian subcontinent nor part of soviet Central Asia.
It’s okay for a country to be in multiple regions of Asia simultaneously, especially at Afghanistan’s geographical location, sharing borders with China, Iran, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan.
WikiAmerican1 (talk) 16:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but Afghanistan is mainly a Central Asian country. It is only "sometimes" considered to be a South Asian country. This is what the Afghan people say about Afghanistan:
"Afghanistan is most commonly referred to as being a part of the region of Central Asia; a group of countries that occupies the area between China, India, Russia and Iran. Afghanistan is also a member of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation alongside Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, and as such is sometimes termed as a South Asian country. It is, however, not a Middle-Eastern country."
Source: https://www.afghanaid.org.uk/is-afghanistan-in-the-middle-east-afghanaid-explains 58.152.51.109 (talk) 10:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan

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According to ChatGPT, Afghanistan is a part of Central Asia. That should end all discussions about Afghanistan's status.

Link: https://aichatonline.org/chat/ 120.18.220.112 (talk) 08:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Really because chat gpt got also says this

"Afghanistan is considered part of South Asia due to its geographical location, historical ties, and cultural connections with the South Asian region. Here are some key reasons why Afghanistan is categorized as South Asian:

1.Geographic Proximity: Afghanistan is situated in the southern part of Central Asia, but it shares a border with several South Asian countries, including Pakistan to the east and south. Its geographical proximity to South Asia is a significant factor in considering it part of the region.

2.Historical Ties: Afghanistan has historical connections with South Asia, particularly with the Indian subcontinent. These ties date back centuries and are rooted in trade, migration, and cultural exchanges. The historical influence of empires such as the Mughal Empire on Afghanistan and vice versa has contributed to these connections.

3.Cultural Similarities: Afghanistan shares cultural elements, such as cuisine, music, and traditions, with South Asian countries. This cultural overlap is a reflection of the historical interactions and exchanges between the regions.

4.Membership in Regional Organizations: Afghanistan is a member of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC), a regional organization composed of South Asian nations. Its membership in SAARC underscores its integration into South Asian regional affairs.

5.Linguistic Ties: While Pashto and Dari (a dialect of Persian) are the official languages of Afghanistan, there are linguistic ties between Afghanistan and South Asia. For example, Urdu, which is one of the official languages of Pakistan, shares linguistic roots with languages spoken in Afghanistan. For example Dari which is the Afghan variant of Persian (Farsi), has had a significant influence on Urdu. Persian was historically a language of administration, culture, and literature in the Indian subcontinent, including areas that are now part of India and Pakistan. Many Persian loanwords and expressions found their way into Urdu vocabulary, enriching the language.

Overall, Afghanistan's geographical location, historical ties, cultural connections, and participation in regional organizations like SAARC all contribute to its classification as part of the South Asian region."

  • Absolutely incorrect. Afghanistan is mainly a Central Asian country. It is only "sometimes" considered to be a South Asian country. This is what the Afghan people say about Afghanistan:
"Afghanistan is most commonly referred to as being a part of the region of Central Asia; a group of countries that occupies the area between China, India, Russia and Iran. Afghanistan is also a member of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation alongside Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, and as such is sometimes termed as a South Asian country. It is, however, not a Middle-Eastern country."
Source: https://www.afghanaid.org.uk/is-afghanistan-in-the-middle-east-afghanaid-explains 58.152.51.109 (talk) 09:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's time to exclude Afghanistan as a part of South Asia

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After conducting a research about the subject, I can confidently say that Afghanistan is not a part of South Asia. The country should be included as a part of Central Asia instead. This is also what the Afghan people have told me, many many of them said the same. 58.152.51.109 (talk) 08:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan, once again.

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There seems to be a specific either political or nefarious reason on why Afghanistan is always shoved into the Category of "South Asia" or "South Asian", time and time again we have clarified that Afghanistan in its modern state has nothing to do with neither India or Pakistan, the land itself sure was a part of many empires that eventually conquered india, but it was always different from india(including pakistan), an example being that rarely if ever that is , any Native Indian south asian conquered those lands why the opposite happened many times over.

Afghanistan seems to not be able to identify as an Iranian nation , even though it's languages, people and culture is close to iran because Shia iranian nationalists have decided so and have instead been given all of its designations and names by others because the country has been at war for too long for its people to get anytime to make there presence be known online and today we have ended up with this, the last remnant of scythians, Greco Bactrians, Sogdians,Saka, being feasted upon by history vultures who have to compensate of its lack of achievements. 2607:FEA8:FC60:7C5A:81F2:C530:467B:DD20 (talk) 19:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

South Asia = Indian Subcontinent.
Afghanistan is not a part of South Asia. It is a part of Central Asia. 58.152.51.162 (talk) 04:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan in map

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If Afghanistan is only "often included" in South Asia, then shouldn't the map image shown in the lede have Afghanistan in a light-green colour, to indicate its ambiguous inclusion? Such a map exists in an old revision of the map from 2020, it can be uploaded as a separate map and then used in this article. GreekApple123 (talk) 16:22, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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