Talk:Order of Canada

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This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Order of Canada is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 5, 2005.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 22, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
June 27, 2005	Featured article candidate	Promoted
November 18, 2011	Featured article review	Kept

Current status: Featured article

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Archives

2005–2009

Conrad Black

Conrad Black is listed as a member, although he has renounced his Canadian citizenship. If someone can remain a member despite no longer being a Canadian citizen, that deserves mention in the eligibility criteria. Grover cleveland (talk) 01:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Margaret Thompson

The anon User:75.159.1.136 has five times now added a segment about some Dr. Margaret Thompson and her membership in the Order of Canada being the subject of a petition for her removal or the "Awards committee" is considering removing her from the order due to "her involvement with the Alberta Eugenics Board and her approval of forced sterilizations and unnecessary castrations for research, all of which have been considered crimes against humanity since the Nuremburg Trials." This has been reverted by three users, including myself, but the anon persists.

In researching, I've found some corroborating evidence that Thompson was indeed a member of the Alberta Eugenics Board and is now a member of the Order of Canada (see testimony here). However, there seems to be zero sign of a petition or that the Order of Canada advisory panel is considering revoking her scrolls. Plus, the anon's addition is rife with POV and irrelevancies.

On those grounds, I think the anon should cease revert warring until better sources can be provided. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A detailed factual account of Dr. Thompson's outrageous misconduct can be found in Madam Justice Veit's decision Muir v. the Queen in right of Alberta D.L.R. (4th) 695 Court file No. 8903 20759, Alberta Court of Queen's Bench, Veit, J January 25, 1996. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.181.120.98 (talk) 22:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A copy of the Petition to remove Dr. Margaret Thompson is on file with the Eugenics Archive program at the University of Alberta. Dr. Rob Wilson is the head of the Eugenics Archive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.108.140 (talk) 16:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great. So, provide it. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FA concerns

This article has some concerning aspects for a FA quality article, namely referencing issues in some places, short paragraphs and short subsections, some wholly unreferenced parts, short lede/intro that does not conform to WP:LEAD, and could use an image review. I'd recommend working on these issues, or perhaps the best place to address them would be at WP:FAR. If users involved in the article's maintenance do not object, I could identify problem areas regarding referencing in the article, by adding {{fact}} tags. -- Cirt (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It has been a few years since it went to FA, so anything you can suggest and do to help us retain that status would be grateful. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What does "FA" mean? – AndyFielding (talk) 05:35, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FA stands for featured article. Indefatigable (talk) 13:47, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reference to the petition for the removal of Dr. Margaret Thompson can be found at: http://eugenicsarchive.ca/docs/October2011events.doc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.181.120.98 (talk) 22:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Museum's page

I've created a new page List of Order of Canada insignia displayed in Museums to make note of where medals of the Order of Canada appear in a museum's exhibits. I have added the ones that I am aware of. If anyone can find anymore please add them to the list Dowew (talk) 00:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Featured article review for Order of Canada

I have nominated Order of Canada for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Brad (talk) 01:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Category:1967 in Canadian music

I wonder if User:Argolin could explain here what relevance this article on a national civil order has to a Canadian music category. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New constitution

I am a little confused by the new wording of the order's constitution. S.9(2) states that "In addition to any Governor General and his or her spouse and any former Governor General and that former Governor General's spouse, a member of the Royal Family may be appointed as an extraordinary Companion, Officer or Member", which reads as though governors general and their spouses are not automatically appointed to any grade of the order and may never be (only the governor general becomes ex-officio Chancellor and Principal Compainion during his or her time in office).

Further on, in S.12(3), it's said "An appointment of any Governor General or his or her spouse or former Governor General or that former Governor General's spouse as a Companion is deemed to be an appointment as an extraordinary Companion." Well, does that mean that anyone who was appointed as a Companion before they became governor general doesn't become an extraordinary Companion when appointed as governor general? Or, is the current governor general, his wife, and all living former governors general and their spouses now considered to be extraordinary Companions?

Perhaps someone can figure it out. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:26, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm shocked to hear that spouses of governors general are given this honour. For no better reason than that they married the right person. Awards recognising a spouse's achievements in his or her own right are different, of course. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

another removal

In case this is needed

Order of Canada « New Search B. Norman Barwin, C.M., M.D., F.R.C.C. Full Name Honour Received Residence B. Norman Barwin, C.M., M.D., F.R.C.C. C.M. Nepean Honour Appointment Investiture Member of the Order of Canada November 14, 1996 April 16, 1997 His work as a gynecologist, researcher and medical educator has had a profound impact on both the biological and psycho-social aspects of women's reproductive health. The Planned Parenthood movement and the Infertility Awareness Association of Canada have benefited greatly from his expertise and support in their efforts to provide information on family building and infertility treatment options. He has helped to increase understanding among the general public, government and the medical community of the importance of the family unit in society.

Further on Precedence

I don't know beans about this, but there seems a contradiction between the lead paragraph's phrases "second highest honour for merit," "comes second only to membership in the Order of Merit," and the Creation section saying, "Among the civilian awards of the Canadian honours system, the Order of Canada comes third, after the Cross of Valour and membership in the Order of Merit." Can it be both second and third at the same time? Egmonster (talk) 04:57, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Cross of Valour is for bravery, not merit. Ergo, appointment to the order of Canada is the third highest civilian honour and second highest honour for merit. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 07:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Section with notable members, or link to list of notable members?

I found this page after reading the Malcolm Gladwell article and seeing the curious CM under his name in the infobox. I read the article and noticed that there's no section about notable members. There is a listing of the first inducted members from 1967, and even a listing of the committee members, but no listing of notable members, including Mr. Gladwell and Lorne Michaels, of Saturday Night Live fame. I added a link to the page giving a listing of members, and updated the member count, which was a year old. Should there be listing of notable members in the article, or perhaps a separate article that is just a list of notable members? Timtempleton (talk) 19:26, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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“Awarded by” section in infobox

The established precedence on all pages of royal honours throughout the Commonwealth is that if the monarch is officially considered the orders’ Sovereign head, the order is considered “awarded by the monarch”, even if the Governor-General administers the order on a day-to-day basis on the monarch’s behalf (see Order of New Zealand, New Zealand Order of Merit, King's Service Order, Order of Saint Lucia, Order of Grenada and more). The Order may be awarded by the Governor-General in practice, but it is done on behalf and in the stead of the monarch, who is the one formally granting the award. Thus, the Monarch should be listed in this section, not the Governor-General and certainly not a convoluted “Governor-General in the name of the monarch”. Lord Dim 1 (talk) 20:21, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Everything the governor general does is on behalf of the monarch. Constitutional monarchs are ceremonial..... Thus monarchs have Governor generals representing them all over the world to perform their ceremonial duties"Role and Responsibilities". The Governor General of Canada. 2016-12-21. Retrieved 2025-02-27. Moxy🍁 00:39, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's irrelevant what other pages have in their infoboxes. Each order and sovereign nation are different. Wikipedia is governed by reliable sources, not inferences from other Wikipedia pages. For example, section 11 of the statutes of the Order of New Zealand specifies that the award is made by the monarch personally (and same for the NZ Order of Merit). Hence it is accurate to say the monarch makes that award. However, the constitution of the order of Canada only mentions that appointments are made by the governor-general.

The argument that the Order of Canada is as you say "done on behalf and in the stead of the monarch, who is the one formally granting the award" is plausible, but you have provided no sources to support this claim. Per WP:Burden, this requires a source that directly supports the claim the monarch awards the order of Canada. However, currently all the sources indicates that the governor general makes the award in accordance with powers granted to them under the Order's constitution. I have looked, but I have not found any other information that supports your claim. Safes007 (talk) 02:18, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Canadian Forces Honours Policy Manual[1] explicitly states that “ Honours are […] bestowed on behalf of the Sovereign”. This explicitly states that the Order is formally given by the King, but in practice by the Governor General in his stead as the King is not present in Canada and has, under the 1947 Letters Patent, delegated his powers and responsibilities to the Governor General.

All powers of the Canadian Governor General derive from the King as his representative; they have no independent powers which are not derived from their position as the King’s representative.

Governors General and their spouse, upon entering into office, are invested by the King personally to the Order of Canada, traditionally at a personal audience[2]. This shows the monarch’s personal involvement with appointments to the Order.. The Scroll of Appointment to the Order additionally explicitly states that appointments are made “with the approval” of the Sovereign[3].

The Governor General does not independently appoint members to the Order of Canada, but does so as the representative of the King and in his name. Thus, the award is formally granted by the King. This is made even clear by the Constitution of the Order itself, which states that the Governor General shall be “responsible for the administration of the Order”[4]. The Governor General simply administers the Order on the King’s behalf. They do not make appointments independent of the King’s authority. Lord Dim 1 (talk) 12:43, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You are making an assumption I dispute in the first paragraph. Whilst the source indicates that honours are bestowed "on behalf" of the sovereign, it does not state that "the Order is formally given by the King". This is the key claim I am disputing and you have not provided a reliable source that suggests this.

I don't see why it's relevant that all the GG's powers derive from the King. The question we are asking is who "awards" the honours, not what the ultimate source of those powers are. Assuming that executive power in Canada is similar to Australia (which I know more about), all of the executive power of the government comes from the monarch, but that does not mean the monarch "appoints" every civil servant. Her power is delegated to ministers and from ministers down throughout the bureaucracy.

Your source does not state that "Governors General and their spouse, upon entering into office, are invested by the King personally to the Order of Canada". It states that David L. Johnston was presented with the insignia of the Order of Canada. His Wikipedia page states he had been a companion since 1997, so I presume the insignia they are referring to is the "chancellors chain" or some other insignia in their role as Chancellor.

It's also unclear whether the scroll of appointment is one made before or after the changes that removed the need for the sovereign's approval. In 1972 the constitution was updated to remove the requirement for approval to be given and in 1978 she was advised to delegate her power to give approval to the GG.^[1] Regardless of what the scroll says, approval is no longer required for an award to be made.

Your final paragraph is unsourced, apart from the fact that the Constitution makes the Chancellor responsible for the administration of the order. This does not address the question of who is the person who makes awards. Also it is correct that the source of the GG's authority is from the King (via the letters patent that created in and its constitution). If you can find a reliable source that states "the Governor General does not independently appoint members to the Order of Canada, but does so as the representative of the King and in his name" I will be happy to accept your arguments, but until such time Wikipedia must follow the sources available which state that the governor general makes the appointments. Safes007 (talk) 00:58, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agree sources are clear "Order of Canada". The Governor General of Canada. 2017-09-21. Retrieved 2025-02-28. The Order of Canada is the cornerstone of the Canadian Honours System. Presented by the governor general, it recognizes outstanding achievement, dedication to the community and service to the nation. Moxy🍁 01:03, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Order of Military Merit has as good as the exact same structure as the Order of Canada in regards to appointments ("Following the Order of Canada structure and general ethos has served the Order of Military Merit well".[1] Requirements for the Sovereign's personal approval were removed in 1977 and delegated to the Governor General, just as they were for the Order of Canada in 1972. As such, statements made about the Order of Military Merit in this regard certainly hold to apply to the Order of Canada. The 2012 book "The Order of Military Merit", published by the Canadian Ministry of National Defence, states that "all appointments are made by the Governor General on behalf of The Queen through delegated authority."[1]

As you yourself pointed out and this makes clear, the power of appointment and approval of members of the Order is made by the Governor General via authority delegated from the Sovereign. Delegation means, per definition, that these are powers not exercised independently, but on behalf and in the name of the delegator. The Order of Canada: Genesis of an Honours System also states on page 369 that "Today appointments to the Order of Canada are considered by a special committee established under the auspices of the Governor General, with no political involvement. This committee submits a list of names to the Governor General (who acts on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen) twice a year."^[2]

It is thus indisputable that the Order of Canada is granted by the Governor General on behalf of the Sovereign. As the aforementioned book makes clear on page 214 (which you cited) "Letters Patent delegated – but did not transfer – to the Governor General – a number of elements of the Sovereign’s personal involvement". This is just the same as with the Order. The order is awarded by the Governor General only in their capacity as the King's representative, acting in his stead. Thus, the Order of Canada is formally granted by the Sovereign - with the Governor General merely acting as an administrative instrument in the process of awarding.

I will here too tag @Peter Ormond Lord Dim 1 (talk) 22:02, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You have made several sourced claims that appointments are made on behalf of the monarch. I do not dispute this. After you provided a source previously that appointments are made on behalf of the monarch I happily added that to the infobox.

What is dispute is the leap you have made that therefore appointments are legally granted by the monarch in their name. You claim that "Delegation means ... powers [are] not exercised independently, but on behalf and in the name of the delegator". By what definition and according to what source? The last bit is the thing I dispute. The Oxford Dictionary of Law defines delegation as "The grant of authority to a person to act on behalf of one or more others, for agreed purposes." This does not suggest that powers are therefore legally "made" by the delegator. For example, parliament may delegate its legislative authority to the executive to make regulations. However, it would be wrong to say that regulations are made by Parliament. Regulations are made by the executive, according to authority granted to them by parliament.

It is also not relevant to the question of whether powers are legally made in the name of the monarch that powers are delegated, but not transferred. This simply means that the monarch may end the delegation (through changing the order's constitution) or possibly means they could exercise the powers the GG is making or override them. For example, delegated legislation may be disallowed by Parliament after it has been made and the delegation of powers doesn't stop Parliament from legislating on that topic.

Ultimately, you seem to be arguing by inference by other sources and what you believe the definition of "delegation" is for your conclusion that legally awards are made in the monarch's own name. But this is Wikipedia, not a legal journal and we cannot do original research. We can only make claims that are directly supported by sources. Per WP:OR, "original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources." Even if your conclusion was accurate, we cannot directly claim that argument unless another publicly available reliable source made the same conclusion. In other words, you need to provide a source that directly makes your claim that "the Order of Canada is formally granted by the Sovereign - with the Governor General merely acting as an administrative instrument in the process of awarding". Safes007 (talk) 05:22, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ McCreery, Christopher; Johnston, David (2018). The Order of Canada, Second Edition: Genesis of an Honours System (2 ed.). University of Toronto Press. p. 214. doi:10.3138/j.ctvvnff8. ISBN 978-1-4875-0094-8.
^ McCreery, Christopher; Johnston, David (2018). The Order of Canada, Second Edition: Genesis of an Honours System (2 ed.). University of Toronto Press. p. 369. doi:10.3138/j.ctvvnff8. ISBN 978-1-4875-0094-8.

[1] McCreery, Christopher; Johnston, David (2018). The Order of Canada, Second Edition: Genesis of an Honours System (2 ed.). University of Toronto Press. p. 214. doi:10.3138/j.ctvvnff8. ISBN 978-1-4875-0094-8.

[2] McCreery, Christopher; Johnston, David (2018). The Order of Canada, Second Edition: Genesis of an Honours System (2 ed.). University of Toronto Press. p. 369. doi:10.3138/j.ctvvnff8. ISBN 978-1-4875-0094-8.

[1]

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