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Talk:Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences

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"same ceremony"

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The lede says "Laureates are announced with the Nobel Prize laureates, and receive the award at the same ceremony". That is clearly not true, because the Peace prize has a different ceremony (in Oslo not Stockholm) and is misleading (evidence: one of my friends reading it was misled). The source (Britannica) doesn't say quite this, it refers to a ceremony which, I assume the other Nobel Prizes are awarded at. I can't think of how to work the lede better to make this clear. Also, Britannica does not seem like the best of sources here surely? Francis Davey (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 April 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved buidhe 00:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences → Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences – Title of this article need an update. Many things have changed since 2009 (last time we discussed as WP:RM). The Nobel Foundation doesn't use the current name and doesn't call it a Nobel. Danish WP, Dutch WP, Swedish WP, and many other use Sveriges Riksbank Prize as a name. The title which Wikipedia uses becomes a common title and this what currently is happening. See search results: "Nobel+Memorial+Prize+in+Economic+Sciences"&client=opera&hs=Y8w&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi30bfsi_XoAhVdVRUIHRoUA8wQ_AUoAnoECDwQBA&biw=1326&bih=627 5,560 v "Sveriges+Riksbank+Prize"&client=opera&hs=zwH&tbm=nws&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilmP33jfXoAhUgTxUIHYPeCWsQ_AUICigB&biw=1326&bih=627&dpr=1 4700 so clearly gap is narrow and we should prefer later results.

Also, read Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences#Controversies_and_criticisms section. Störm (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  1. The proposed "official" name is not the common name. WP:COMMONNAME reads: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title." The proposed name is also not even the "official" name, which is "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel."
  2. What other language wikis do is not relevant to the English-language Wikipedia. WP:COMMONNAME goes on to say: "it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)"
  3. The proposer's statement that "The title which Wikipedia uses becomes a common title and this what currently is happening" is ahistorical and unsupported. The proposer's most recent edits refer to the current title as "your own made name," suggesting that the proposer is not aware that the use of "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences," including in award speeches at the Nobel ceremony, predate the existence of Wikipedia by decades, as documented earlier on this talk page. The fact is that in English, patterns like "John Doe Memorial Golf Outing" is far more common than the pattern that results from the direct translation from Swedish, "Golf Outing in Memory of John Doe."
  4. Per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." The current title is much more recognizable than the "official" name. Both "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" and "Nobel Prize in Economics" are more common in English than "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences"
  5. Per WP:NATURALNESS, "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English." "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is used almost twice as often as "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences," and the only related term that is used more often (by a lot) is "Nobel Prize in Economics."
  6. The title "Nobel Prize in Economics," though the most common name in English, is already avoided due to the "controversy" noted by the proposer, but the use of an even less common name (and the proposer's repeated edits removing the note that the title is in fact commonly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in Economics" elevate the proposer's concern with making sure no one ever calls a prize awarded by the Nobel Foundation a "Nobel Prize" over the needs and interests of average Wikipedia users and is thus non-NPOV. Note that even the Nobel Foundation groups it in with the other prizes as a "Nobel Prize" when it is easier to do so. In their press release for the 2020 prizes, they use the official name of the prize but their announcement begins "This year’s Nobel Prize announcements will take place from 5-12 October." The prize that will be awarded on 12 October is this prize.

RaveX (talk) 19:19, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Not a Nobel Prize"

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The following assertion in the introduction:

"While it is not one of the original Nobel Prizes established by Alfred Nobel's will in 1895, it is generally regarded and often referred to as the Nobel award for Economics."

cites https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/economic-sciences/ as evidence to back up its claim.

But "Nobel award for Economics" does not even appear on that page and actually says it is "Not a Nobel Prize":

"Not a Nobel Prize

The Prize in Economic Sciences is not a Nobel Prize. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden’s central bank) instituted “The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel”, and it has since been awarded by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences according to the same principles as for the Nobel Prizes that have been awarded since 1901. The first Prize in Economic Sciences was awarded to Ragnar Frisch and Jan Tinbergen in 1969."

The actual names used are "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" and "Prize in Economic Sciences".

If there is a mistaken common name, it is Nobel Prize in Economics. The article should say something like: The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel is not a Nobel Prize, although it is commonly mistakenly called Nobel Prize in Economics.

The current name of the article "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" seems to be made up by Wikipedia editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.60.240 (talk) 10:06, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, good source. At the least, I would suggest changing the current phrase "Although not technically a Nobel Prize" to "Although explicitly not a Nobel Prize", with a reference to this webpage. The reason for this is that one should not make this distinction appear as a mere technicality, e.g. based on hair-splitting legal considerations, when the awarding institution itself makes that point explicit. --2A02:8071:195:2C00:0:0:0:FAF3 (talk) 12:07, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"it is generally regarded and often referred to as the Nobel award for Economics"

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This assertion "it is generally regarded and often referred to as the Nobel award for Economics" is not backed up by its source: https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/economic-sciences/

The phrase "Nobel award for Economics" does not even appear on that web page.

Moreover it states "The Prize in Economic Sciences is not a Nobel Prize".

Controversies and criticisms

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It says in this part that the socialist economist Joan Robinson was "snubbed" for a Nobel Prize, but I do not think she was ever even considered. In her Wikipedia page, it states she was a strong supporter of the North Korean dictatorship and even of Mao's Cultural Revolution. It would be a bad joke to award her a Nobel Prize in economics.

These edits have been reverted with any reason given except see talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences&type=revision&diff=1007742305&oldid=1007741983 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.60.240 (talk) 22:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There shouldn't even be a "criticism" section in this article, which reflects nothing but the political biases of the sources (and the editors who push to include them).
There is a serious problem on Wiki with editors attacking economics as if it's a wildly controversial subject. In fact it's a wildly recognized legitimate subject and science in academia, both in Europe and North America.
What purpose does the criticism section serve readers? Nothing except conveying the impression that the Prize in Economic Sciences is not a legitimate award, which by extension implies that the achievements of the recipients of the prize are not legitimate achievements.
Alfred Nobel would've had no reason to include an "economics" prize in his will in 1895. That was right in the middle of the marginal revolution, as economics was transforming from a branch of philosophy and literature into a mathematical science. It was only in the 20th Century that economics emerged as a unique branch of the social sciences. Nobel didn't consider a prize for philosophy in his will, and thus wouldn't have thought to include any particular branch of philosophy, and may have even considered his literature prize to encompass all the various philosophical schools of thought.Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:28, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Even though this is an older discussion, I feel compelled to reply to the points stated above, for they betray an ill-conceived and lacking understanding of history, bordering on distortion (and, ironically, reflect what you have called political biases).
Alfred Nobel intended the Nobel prize to go to those "who have during the previous year rendered the greatest service to mankind." – His chosen fields were physics, chemistry, physiology/medicine, literature and the pursuit of peace. I don't think we should engage in speculations about what his true intentions were, but if you were to press me, I would say that he probably excluded economics for the same reason that he excluded philosophy, other emerging scientific disciplines, as well as music, architecture and other art forms not suited to a literary format – he just didn't believe that these rendered such a great service to mankind that they were deserving of a prize in his name — remember, the prize didn't start out as the most prestigious award in its respective field. The disciplines were chosen according to his personal tastes, basically, and he obviously leaned towards fields related to engineering (physics & chemistry), humanitarian work (medicine / pursuit of peace) and high-spirited, uplifting endeavors in general (pursuit of peace / literature).
The Marginal Revolution did not, in fact, transform economics from a branch of philosophy and literature [??; is this supposed to be a reference to The Fable of the Bees?] into a mathematical science – rather, it was at most one part of that transformation, which started before the Marginal Revolution and included many more figures and thinkers (e.g. Vilfredo Pareto). Also, all academic disciplines started as a branch of philosophy and then specialized later on. Your assertion that It was only in the 20th Century that economics emerged as a unique branch of the social sciences. is incredibly incorrect; in fact, economics as a specialized discipline predates most other social sciences, and e.g. sociology emerged as economic thinkers branching out into social research more generally (Marx, Pareto, Weber, etc.).
To that point, something can be recognized as a legitimate subject and science and be a wildly controversial subject at the same time, that's not a contradiction. You have asked, rhetorically, What purpose does the criticism section serve readers?; the criticism section serves the same purpose as all other criticism sections, to inform the reader that the subject of the article is, in fact, controversial (see WP:CRITICISM). If there are reliable sources which document criticism and controversies, they shouldn't be excluded from the article, since that would violate WP:NPOV. Your answer, which said Nothing except conveying the impression that the Prize in Economic Sciences is not a legitimate award, which by extension implies that the achievements of the recipients of the prize are not legitimate achievements. is just your opinion, and is an over-interpretation of the article's content. The section conveys simply that this prize is controversial for a number of reasons. That is all. TucanHolmes (talk) 17:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IP you provide a political argument as to why she deservedly wasn’t awarded the prize. This is an ex post facto argument, you base it on current conceptions of these regimes and equate her historical praise as unconditional praise. I agree these are horrible regimes, but if you wish to argue why she should not be mentioned, then please provide peer reviewed reliable sources that provide a coherent argument that supports your view. Wikipedia aims for neutrality, it’s not perfect but sources are the best resource we’ve got in attempting to distil the truth. TL;DR, please provide sources. Sadke4 (talk) 09:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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