Talk:Buffy Sainte-Marie

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/human-rights-museum-buffy-sainte-marie-1.7469579

Billboard "Best New Artist 1964"

I've been trying to find a reference for the Billboard Best New Artist award. There has been an inconclusive discussion on this topic before (see Archive 3). Buffy's website currently says "1964 – Billboard Magazine’s Best New Artist". I've tried my best hunting around Google search and the only thing I've found related to this topic is a scan of Billboard from March 27th 1965.^[1] On page 65 under Singles Reviews it says "Buffy Sainte-Marie-Until It's Time For You To Go. Warm delivery of class material from the gal voted as 'No.1 Folk Singer' in Billboard's 1964-1965 DJ Poll". This seems a very plausible contender for the Billboard award which over time has become misstated. I haven't been able to find any other sources for Billboard awards for 1964 or 1965, but maybe they're out there? Anyone know how to find that? Seaweed (talk) 16:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Billboard March 27th 1965" (PDF). World Radio History. Retrieved 13 April 2024.

Seaweed: Buffy St. Marie did not win the Billboard Best New Artist award because no such award existed. The March 27, 1965, issue of Billboard magazine featured that year's "Billboard Disk Jockey Poll" (p. 54). For the first time in that poll, "[The magazine] asked air personalities and programmers to vote only within the musical categories with which they deal professionally every day." In other words, for the folk category, only folk deejays were consulted. Buffy won in the "New Female Vocalist – Folk" category. "Favorite new female vocalist" went to Petula Clark in the singles poll and Vikki Carr in the LPs poll. Tkbrett (✉) 14:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted! I should have read that edition more thoroughly! So although her website says "1964 – Billboard Magazine’s Best New Artist", it should say something like "1965 - Billboard Magazine's Favorite New Female Vocalist – Folk"? Seaweed (talk) 19:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and subsequent sources have similarly misreported it without digging any further. Even Billboard misreported it! Confusingly, Billboard issued two unique issues on March 27, 1965. The one with the poll was in the standard weekly issue, and there was also a special campus issue. Tkbrett (✉) 20:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the extra explanation. Seaweed (talk) 18:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have been searching for the origin of this false claim. It seems to be everywhere, including on Buffy's entry at the Canadian Encyclopedia, in Andrea Warner's authorized biography (chapter 6) and even in the Fifth Estate's exposé (2:59). The Billboard Music Award for Top New Artist was first awarded in 1977 ([1]), making a 1964 win an impossibility.

The earliest instance I have found is a 1969 article, where it states that "In 1965, Billboard magazine named her the most promising female vocalist of that year". This seemed to be a simple error, as other 1960s articles ([2]) properly reported that she won a poll among folk DJs. After 1969, I could not find anything until 1993, when an article in Tacoma's The News Tribune repeated the "best new artist" of 1964 bit. Andrea Warner cites old Billboard issues directly in the authorized biography, but for this claim she does not. Instead, she includes a footnote to the 2004 book Saskatchewan First Nations. Buffy's entry, written by the musicologist Colette P. Simonot, repeats the claim but does not source it (p. 118). Tkbrett (✉) 12:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just watched part of a video on YouTube from an event held at the Senate of Canada on April 3rd 2017 where Buffy Sainte-Marie said the following at 1:20: "...and in 1964 I made my first album and was named Billboard Magazine's best new artist, that was the year the Beatles came to North America..." [3]. That's quite a statement. Seaweed (talk) 10:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In 1964, the Beatles were listed as the "most promising artist" among "singing groups and/or duos" (p. 37). That was in the April 11, 1964 issue (pp. 36–39 of the original; pp. 12–15 of the PDF). Buffy did not appear because her debut album came out that same month.

This reinforces for me that future editors will need to be vigilant in editing this page. Sainte-Marie is obviously an unreliable narrator in regards to her life, but ostensibly reliable sources – like Andrea Warner's authorized biography or a book published by the University of Regina – are weak in their coverage of Sainte-Marie's life by taking many of her claims at face value. Tkbrett (✉) 16:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia of the Great Plains citation

While her birth date is not up for contention, should we still be using as our citation for it the Encyclopedia of the Great Plains link that still credits her as Cree and born on a reservation in Canada? Perhaps something that has been updated to reflect her actual background and birth location would be better? That the link still has the old discredited info puts it all into question. Maybe the page should be looked at more closely to make sure we're only using reliable sources that reflect Sainte-Marie's actual background? Beggarsbanquet (talk) 03:56, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Her nationality in opening sentence

As per the MOS, a person's nationality or citizenship is referred to in the opening sentence. "Canadian-American" or "American-Canadian" are *not* nationalities. She should be referred to either as "American" or "Canadian", or, if she has dual nationality, as "American and Canadian" (or vice-versa) if she is closely associated with both countries (which she is). Afterwriting (talk) 01:20, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that she is referred to as "American and Canadian". It seems logical to me to have her birth nationality first and an acquired nationality or citizenship following. I'm assuming that she is a legal citizen of both countries. What do others think? Afterwriting (talk) 02:06, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No citizenship of Canada Moxy🍁 02:08, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Thanks. In that case I suggest that she should probably be only referred to as "American". Afterwriting (talk) 02:21, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

False claims higher in lead

Now that many of the prestigious awards she won while falsely claiming an Indigenous identity have been rescinded, shouldn't that go higher into the lead? Perhaps adding a second sentence after the opening sentence about her career? oncamera _{(talk page)} 19:03, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Potentially, but there was a well participated RfC about this. Granted, it is a bit stale since it is from 14 months ago. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:14, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That was long before the awards were rescinded and around the time of the documentary was just released, so a lot of changes were happening to her article. oncamera _{(talk page)} 05:00, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I getcha. I guess my advice is be bold and go for it, discuss if reverted as usual, and if discussion doesn't show a clear favorite, to then do a new RfC to try to see if the circumstances are different enough to change things. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:28, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The lead reads pretty well to me in it's current state. She is most notable for her music career. So focusing on that first is fine and the last paragraph of the lead covers the controversy. Only change I'd make is remove "social activist" from the first sentence. Per MOS:FIRSTBIO, the lead sentence should focus on one, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person is mainly known for, avoiding subjective or contentious terms. Social activist is receiving undue weight in the lead. Nemov (talk) 15:41, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage and offspring info is gone

Marriage and offspring info has been removed. That's common bio info. It would be good to get it sourced and back in. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:24, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@North8000 - I do agree with you and I don't remove unsourced personal info without at least having a look for sources; I couldn't find any in this case. Best wishes, T. Tony Holkham (Talk) 08:18, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. North8000 (talk) 13:51, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

marriages to Dewain Bugbee, Sheldon Wolfchild, Jack Nitzsche: https://www.cbc.ca/music/read/buffy-sainte-marie-75-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-canadian-icon-1.5010129
Marriage to Jack Nitzsche: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/nov/21/buffy-sainte-marie-documentary-interview
marriage to Sheldon Wolfchild: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/my-time-on-sesame-street-with-buffy-sainte-marie/24486/

oncamera _{(talk page)} 19:14, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we're doing this at the same time. I've found some other references (some contemporary) about her marriages and put back in some details with references. Seaweed (talk) 19:31, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Claim of Indigenous Identity

This paragraph:

On the day before the broadcast of The Fifth Estate, the Descendants of Piapot and Starblanket issued a statement defending Sainte-Marie's ties to the Piapot First Nation, saying: "We claim her as a member of our family and all of our family members are from the Piapot First Nation. To us, that holds far more weight than any paper documentation or colonial record keeping ever could." They also criticized the allegations against Sainte-Marie as being "hurtful, ignorant, colonial — and racist"

These statements may or may not be true, and these people may or may not have made them, but neither quote appears in the citation given. A new citation sourcing the actual quotes, is needed.

[1] "Billboard March 27th 1965" (PDF). World Radio History. Retrieved 13 April 2024.

[1]